CraigMan's Ban

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Bitchy
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CraigMan's Ban

Post by Bitchy » Wed May 10, 2006 9:11 am

Hey all,

Dede asked a question about CraigMan's ban and I thought that I should post something about it. Basically, he was making racist comments in the server. I don't have a copy of the console (I miss having the IRC system De). I actually banned him about a week before he posted his message which leads me to believe that he doesn't play much on the qoou server anyways and he's just trying to get attention.

If anyone thinks that the ban should be removed, please say so. I'm more than happy to see the ban removed if someone (anyone) in the clan is willing to make an argument on his behalf. Contrary to my reputation about bans, I really didn't ban that many people on TGB (as compared to Mac or GS for example) and I am always open to hearing any comments people have on it.

I don't believe that CraigMan is overly well socialized. He doesn't seem to know what kind of behaviour is appropriate and not appropriate and as some other threads have indicated, he is quite tiresome. If we can use bans to help him understand how to behave properly, I'm more than happy to do that.

B.

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Post by Captain_Obvious » Wed May 10, 2006 9:39 am

TGB used to have different ban lengths depending on the offence and number of previous offences.

What if we were to unban Craig after a month has passed, and if further problems arise we give a more serious ban? That way if he gets himself into more trouble, you can at least say that "we gave you a second chance and it still didn't work, so don't bother asking to be unbanned." :P

Whether or not anyone here likes Craig is irrelevant. The punishment should fit the crime. If we give an offender an official second chance, and they change, we should respect it. If they don't change and cause more problems, the ban button is always there.
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Post by Captain_Obvious » Wed May 10, 2006 9:42 am

Also, before doing any unbanning, I'd make any offenders write out a brief statement saying that they know why they were banned, they understand that they're a guest on our server and therefore must play under our guidelines, and that they agree not to do it again. :P
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Post by CraigManOwns » Wed May 10, 2006 10:12 am

i guess i will wait the month or w/e but i did not say anything like that so idk what bitchy is talking about. All i want to do if have a server that I ping 40 at insted of 300 at some bs server so i can play with people like SK.
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Post by Phantom » Wed May 10, 2006 11:13 am

Admiral_Awesome wrote:Also, before doing any unbanning, I'd make any offenders write out a brief statement saying that they know why they were banned...
CraigManOwns wrote:...but i did not say anything like that so idk what bitchy is talking about.
I guess we're not off to a very good start... :?
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Post by Captain_Obvious » Wed May 10, 2006 11:53 am

My previous statement also assumes that offender did in fact do something wrong, and wasn't banned as the result of a mistake, personal issue with the admin, etc...

That's why it's important that any bans can be backed up with log files and/or witnesses.
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Post by Megor » Wed May 10, 2006 12:30 pm

Stop acting like an idiot and you won't get banned its pretty simple.
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Re: CraigMan's Ban

Post by Flatus » Wed May 10, 2006 12:32 pm

Bitchy wrote:Hey all,

Dede asked a question about CraigMan's ban and I thought that I should post something about it. Basically, he was making racist comments in the server. I don't have a copy of the console (I miss having the IRC system De).
Well, there goes that requirement. Any witnesses around then that can verify it took place?
A week's ban IMO is ok for a 1st time offence (with proof to back it up).
CraigMan "should" know that doing forbidden stuff while any admin or person playing around (heck it could be an admin with an alias!) is not allowed.
Next time if it's done, give the bum a month. :twisted:

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Post by smantie » Wed May 10, 2006 3:18 pm

CraigMan, did did you make said comments or not?

Bitchy, what sort of racist comments were these, can you be more specific?

Either way, generally I'd be more or less lenient (CraigMan is fun to keep around because it's so easy to make fun of him) but making racist comments is not only disrespectful, offensive and intolerable, but it also would fall under "excessively vulgar language" which is against the server rules and probably constitutes a ban. However if CraigMan wants to apologize sincerely to Bitchy for offending her, De_Fault for abusing his server, and publicly do so in the forum to everyone else that uses the server and would take offense to that, I wouldn't be averse to unbanning him. If he screws up again on your server I wouldn't hesitate to ban him forever though.
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Re: CraigMan's Ban

Post by Bitchy » Wed May 10, 2006 4:17 pm

Flatus wrote: Well, there goes that requirement. Any witnesses around then that can verify it took place?
A week's ban IMO is ok for a 1st time offence (with proof to back it up).
Keeping track of the proof is too much trouble. We did that at TGB and it was consumed alot of time and effort. I think that I'm willing to put my reputation up against CraigMan's with respect to this.

I think Megor's comments are right on the money.
Last edited by Bitchy on Wed May 10, 2006 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Bitchy » Wed May 10, 2006 4:18 pm

smantie wrote: Bitchy, what sort of racist comments were these, can you be more specific?
It involved african americans. I won't repeat the comments.

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Re: CraigMan's Ban

Post by Captain_Obvious » Wed May 10, 2006 5:15 pm

Bitchy wrote:Keeping track of the proof is too much trouble.
What's hard about making a one time post to this forum saying the following?

"We banned _________ from the server because he said ____________."
(comment censored if needed)


Suddenly the admin doesn't look like a ban nazi, and the player understands why they were kicked.
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Post by Megor » Wed May 10, 2006 5:19 pm

don't you remeber tgb unban me thread, these people are idiots
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Post by Captain_Obvious » Wed May 10, 2006 5:21 pm

That was one of my favorite parts of the forums. Some good laughs in there. :wink:
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Post by special_Kare » Wed May 10, 2006 5:25 pm

Ok, perhaps Craigman did say those things, perhaps not. Whatever the case may be, I've known Bitchy for a long time and trust her decisions. Obviously something was said, by Craigman, that could be taken as a racist remark. In order to maintain a healthy playing environment this sort of behavior cannot be tolerated and must be punished. I also play with Craigman often on other servers and talk to him in MSN and hes not as bad of a person as everyone makes him out to be, so i feel I should say something on his behalf. Sure he can be an asshole and sure he can be juvenile at times, but he can also be fun to play with when he just plays and shuts his yap. Now, Craigman has come to me and asked to have this ban removed and of course i cannot because its not my decision to be made. I also feel that at times some people tend to be a bit harsh towards Craigman to the point where he gets pushed to the edge and says something innapropriate. Now I am not saying that is right or acceptable, but we are all human and we can make mistakes. If Craigman will agree to watch what he says then I feel that we will have to agree to leave him alone. So, what i suggest of course is a ban of some type (B can decide), then of course Craigman you will have to be on your BEST behavior when the ban is lifted and you are allowed to play again. Let it be known Craigman that this is your FINAL chance to prove everything I just said about you. I dont like to say things on behalf of others but Craigman has never wronged me personally so I feel he deserves a chance. I think De said it best, "If people who play here do not care about the rules then that means they dont care about {qoou}." A little bit of respect can go a long way. Well thats all i have to say. Take it or leave it, accept all my ideas or reject them all, just be sure to reply with any thoughts or concerns. :!:
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Post by Rickshaw » Wed May 10, 2006 5:53 pm

This is what I think we should do.

1. Ban Craig for the week (That is a week starting from the beginning of the ban and not today.)

There may have been an infraction of the rules, but I was not there to witness it. If Bitchy felt the need to take action then so be it, since she has been trusted with the admin position.

However, Like CO (AA) said, the punishment must fit the crime. Someone should not be given a harsher or more lenient punishment based on personal feelings. I'm not saying that's happening, but we should remember that in the future.

2. Confirm that Craig understands the current rules of the server and agrees to abide by them. We should enforce a strict one warning policy for the rules. With the past behind us, Craigman's current ban can be considered his one and only warning. If he does anything after this, then he had full knowledge of the consequences and should not be given anymore chances.

I mean it's a computer. It's not too hard to think before you type :roll:

Anyone agree/disagree/not care?
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Re: CraigMan's Ban

Post by Bitchy » Thu May 11, 2006 12:30 am

Admiral_Awesome wrote:
Bitchy wrote:Keeping track of the proof is too much trouble.
What's hard about making a one time post to this forum saying the following?

"We banned _________ from the server because he said ____________."
(comment censored if needed)


Suddenly the admin doesn't look like a ban nazi, and the player understands why they were kicked.
And the immediate response is, "I didn't do that". So what do you do then?

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Post by Bitchy » Thu May 11, 2006 12:36 am

I think that K's comments were very good... it was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks, K!

At this point, I'm happy to remove the ban. Is everyone else ok with that. If not, you can send me a private email with your thoughts if you prefer.

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Post by De_Fault » Thu May 11, 2006 2:07 am

My two cents on all this;

<b>General Comments.</b>

* In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to have Cheat Protection or Bans. It's not a perfect world, people will push the limits and act in ways which are intended to be disrespectful towards others and then whine when they are called out for it. The admins are free to make decisions about what is appropriate behavior. I trust their judgment and am not going to second guess their decisions.

* I chose the people who have banning abilities on the server and they were given this privilege/responsibility because I have played with them for many years and have a healthy respect for their playing abilities and they way they conduct themselves on the server(s).

* The {qoou} Server is not a Public Server, it is a Private Server that has given out it's password so that others can be a part of the {qoou} community and share in the fun we have. The simple act of entering a password to play on the server *should* clue people into that fact. If you knock on someone's door to enter their house as a guest, don't shit on their carpet and expect that no one will mind.

* I do not foresee any circumstances in which I would override a ban imposed by someone else. That's not to say I have no opinions on bans. First and foremost any issue regarding a ban should be resolved by the parties directly involved.


<b>Comments with a finer point.</b>

@ Craigman, in a previous post you said this.
CraigManOwns wrote:i guess i will wait the month or w/e but i did not say anything like that so idk what bitchy is talking about. All i want to do if have a server that I ping 40 at insted of 300 at some bs server so i can play with people like SK.
Just so know, I despise liars. I have seen the logs and no I am not going to post them here. You are already denying what you said so I see no point to offer proof to aid in your selective memory loss. Bitchy saw it happen and I saw it later in the logs. Bitchy banned you based on the Admin Server Controller ID number that is only specific to you. <b>This comment is came from your IP.</b>

Making a mistake is a human trait that we all will have to deal with, the point in which reveals your true character is how you deal with the mistake. You have chosen to deny it. That was/is your decision, then live with it. It has been my sincere hope that this ban would have been helpful with your selective memory loss and you would have enough diginty and honor to admit your mistake. You proved me wrong. A better approach would have been to have been to admit what you said, recognize the negative situation YOU created, and apologized and asked for a second chance.

Know this, if for some reason your ban is lifted, and I were to see something like I saw in the logs again, you will be better off finding another server than wasting your time by lying about your actions to me.


Megor's words speak it very clearly IMHO
Megor wrote:Stop acting like an idiot and you won't get banned its pretty simple.

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Post by Captain_Obvious » Thu May 11, 2006 8:28 am

I've got two points:

1) It's possible that Craig really doesn't remember saying that stuff. Maybe he was drunk or just forgot. Obviously that doesn't make it ok, but he may not necessarily be lying. :P

2) We've wasted way too much time on this issue. :wink:
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Post by De_Fault » Thu May 11, 2006 8:41 am

He had the opportunity to say he forgot, he doesn't remember, instead he said
CraigManOwnse wrote: i guess i will wait the month or w/e <b>but i did not say anything like that</b> so idk what bitchy is talking about.
He flat out denied it, just like a child who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar, therefore that leaves me with only one conclusion. His actions caused this issue, his inability to take responsibilty causes it to continue.

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Post by CraigManOwns » Thu May 11, 2006 10:54 am

well i dont remember what I said and i'd like to see so can u pm me plz. Im with CO and kinda done with all this too so just do w/e your gunna do so we can get back to playin.
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Post by Megor » Thu May 11, 2006 3:55 pm

I agree issue closed perma ban until bitchy thinks he has learned to not act like an idiot.
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Post by special_Kare » Thu May 11, 2006 9:59 pm

and on that note this topic is now locked :P
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